I’m reading with interest some of the comments in the the comments section below. A lot of you SEC fans seem to think that Stanford going 8-4 should automatically disqualify Toby Gerhart from Heisman contention.
Need I remind you that the last SEC player to win the Heisman–Tim Tebow–was on a team that ultimately finished 9-4? And the last SEC running back to win the Heisman–Bo Jackson–was on a team that ultimately finished 8-4?
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sandymex
I interrupt another HP essay about Ingram’s unworthiness to remind you that HP had Ingram #1 toward the end of the season and the final HP Poll has Ingram #1. HP was so high on Ingram that he declared that ONLY McCoy and Ingram could possibly win.
Per 100 touches:
Gerhart 591 yards, 1.6 fum, 8.1 TDs, 2.5 wins
Ingram 668 yards, 0.4 fum, 6.5 TDs, 4.7 wins
The Heisman criteria which voters are expected to adhere to states:
“The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity. WINNERS epitomize great ability combined with diligence, perseverance, and hard work.”
WINNING is clearly very important. When was the last time a guy with 4 losses at the time of voting won the Heisman? I’m pretty sure it was Steve Owens in 1969.
Ingram led #1 Alabama to a 13-0 record by beating #1 Florida and outperforming the #1 defense on a huge national stage. Meanwhile, Gerhart was 3 for 7 in close games… that’s a great batting average but rightly affects his Heisman chances.
My favorite “posits” by HP on this thread are that Richardson was better than Ingram, and that less knowledgeable voters mistook one for the other.
Steven
It’s been great going back and forth with you guys. I don’t do the message board thing very often because it eventually becomes a bunch of sentences that end with “….you ignorant sh#thead!” You’ve opened my eyes to Ingram and I do think he is better than I was initially giving him credit for. If he wins, I’ll be less upset about it now that you’ve made some good points. Having said that…..
What should the Heisman Trophy represent? Without listing all the traits I think it should be, suffice to say that Gerhart IS the Heisman Trophy. He carried his whole team…Hearing people say Ingram is “the best player on the best team” and “Alabama has never won a Heisman Trophy” as valid reasons to vote for him makes me want to rip my ears off.
When I watched Ingram, I was very impressed, but I never thought to myself “DAMN! This guy could win the Heisman!” Every single time I watched Gerhart run the ball, I DID say that. There is nobody in college football like Gerhart. There are several RB’s throughout the country that could likely step in and duplicate what Ingram did. Nobody could duplicate Gerhart.
—Re: The South Carolina game, I won’t argue that his performance was amazing. It was. It was this board that brought to light how amazing it really was…..Notre Dame doesn’t have a defense like Carolina, not even close. But STANFORD SUCKS! Gerhart is doing all of this on his own. He’s not running behind blocks, he’s TRUCKING EVERYONE on his own. He put Stanford on his back ALL SEASON. I just don’t think you can say that about Ingram……
***If Ingram missed the Carolina game, Bama likely wins anyway (as Carolina had 6 points). If Gerhart missed the ND game, Stanford loses by 10-20+ points. No question.***
—Winning???? Stanford would have a LOSING record without Gerhart. I get the sense that we are all in agreement with that statement. Gerhart MADE STANFORD A WINNER. Bama is a winner with or without Ingram, and likely undefeated, in my opinion.
I would say that is the definition of a winner in terms of an individual. This is an INDIVIDUAL award. Bama will play in the BCS championship game and that’s when the team can get their trophy.
Note: I wasn’t suggesting Richardson was better than Ingram. That would be ignorant. I was merely stating that I think if he replaced Ingram, he could put up similar (but lesser) numbers and Bama would still be 12-0. I don’t think we would notice a huge difference in Bama’s offensive production.
Glen Turner
I guess it’s possible we aren’t going to wind up joining hands and singing kumbayah, but I agree, this has been an informative discussion.
Regardless of our beliefs, though, SAT results are making it look like it’s Ingram in a tight one. His lead over Gerhart is currently approximately equal to the largest margin of error SAT has had in any season since 2002. In 2002 SAT only had 127 counted ballots – it’s 242 this year already, which is about as many as they’ve ever gotten (the record was 249 in both 2007 and 2008).
I hypothesize that the folks whose ballots are unknown to SAT – because they are not trumpeting them – are more likely than the group whose ballots are known to be relatively uninformed, which means that below-the-radar candidates like Gerhart and Suh will probably do less well than they do with the folks whose ballots ARE known.
In other words, I expect Ingram to do slightly better with that group than he is doing with the group whose results they are posting. McCoy will do much better with that group, but he is too far behind to catch up. Tebow will probably do well enough to crack the top 5 such that his 3rd trip to the Apple won’t just be a gift.
Glen Turner
Let me add in one note, on the kumbayah front. If Gerhart or Suh won it, I would golf-clap, shrug, and carry on. If McCoy won it, I would be spitting mad. His season has been barely above mediocre.
Solon
Steven–hey man, classy post.
It’s funny, I started out being very pro-Ingram, but after HP voted for Gerhart, and I looked a little closer, I’ve really come around him, and now I’m pretty torn. At this point, I’d feel comfortable with either winning it.
I’d also love for Suh to win it, for a different reason. To be honest, I don’t think it’s really deserved…not in the sense that it’s not *deserved,* but that it’s almost entirely the product of one game. He had a good season, but it’s kind of crazy that people are so fired up about voting for a DT who averaged 1/2 sack/game and 1 TFL during the regular season. Still, I’d appreciate the precedent; defensive players deserve a lot more hype than they get–especially DTs.
I’m much more torn on McCoy…HP was right, it’s difficult to overstate how tough it was to lead his team to an undefeated season, given the expectation level and how little else they have offensively. But at the same, time, the Big 12 was way down this season, and his candidacy seems to speak to one of the weaknesses of the Heisman, i.e. that it is a career award, and largely based on preseason reputation.
But yes, good discussion, guys.
(I should say, on the Ingram v. S Car thing, the argument is more one of game theory than actual performance–in other words, if Ingram hadn’t been getting his yards, S Car would have had better field position, thus putting them in a position to get more points on offense–but the details aren’t really important.)
Solon
Just to be clear, Suh had (if I am not mistaken) 1 TFL/game during the regular season, not just 1 TFL for the whole season. Sorry for any confusion.
Steven
I agree with the Suh sentiment. He is a beast, but the Heisman talk is a bit much. I’m glad to see the recognition, but he crept in there because of one Saturday. Not only did he play well, but when Tebow and McCoy laid eggs, people started looking around for something else. It’s become a Hollywood award so the winner has to have a Hollywood ending. Ingram and Suh fit that billing. I wish my candidate had played that day. If the ND game was on championship Saturday…..
OK, I’ll stop now.
I don’t think I would be upset if McCoy won, but that’s mostly based on the fact that I felt he should have won last year.
Did you see Paul Hornung’s comment? He said he had Tebow on his ballot until he saw him crying. What the? I hope the rest of the voters are a little more open minded than that. That’s ridiculous.
Solon
Steven–I agree that if Gerhart had played on that last Saturday of the season he’d probably have won this thing.
I had not seen that comment by Hornung. Geez Louise…I mean, if he feels that way, fine–it’s sort of stupid, but it’s his vote, let him do what he wants with it–but to tell people that, as though he’s proud of it? What a nutter.
sandymex
Ingram, Gerhart or Suh would all be good choices, but there’s a big drop-off after that.
As for Hornung, I’ve heard of worse reasons for excluding someone. In 1956 many voters left Jim Brown off their ballots because of his skin color. Any guesses as to what 2-8 quarterback was the beneficiary?
Glen Turner
At first, I thought: “Hornung, what a douchebag;” but then I thought about it, and now my conclusion is just that Hornung is an ex-football player pushing 50.
Football players thought that way back in 1950 when his attitudes were forged. That’s all. Times have changed, and for the better.
Now, it’s true there are still some 20- and 25-year-olds who think like that. Now THOSE folks are douchebags.
Glen Turner
Pushing 80, I meant to say. Hey, HP, us idiots need an edit button or a preview button at least.